40 Interview with Dr. Barrie Tan The Truth About Vitamin E.mp3: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix
40 Interview with Dr. Barrie Tan The Truth About Vitamin E.mp3: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Speaker1:
Hi and welcome.
Speaker2:
To the Cancer Secrets podcast. I am your host and guide, Dr. Jonathan Stegall. Cancer is like a thief who has come to steal, kill and destroy. I have personally seen it wreak havoc on patients, friends and even my own family. But I am on a mission to change the cancer paradigm. Who? The practice of integrative oncology cancer treatment that integrates the best of conventional medicine with the best of alternative therapies backed by science and personalized to each patient. You need a positive voice you can trust. This podcast will share valuable information to give you practical hope for a better outcome. So I invite.
Speaker1:
You to join.
Speaker2:
Me on this journey as we seek to change the cancer paradigm together. Hello and welcome back to the Cancer Secrets podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Jonathan Stegall. This is season three and episode number 40. In today's episode, I have a wonderful guest joining us, Dr. Barry Tan. Dr. Tan.
Speaker1:
Welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Speaker2:
It's an honor to have you here. Dr. Tan is hailed as the world's foremost expert on Vitamin E, credited with discovering Toko train, all in three major natural sources Palm, Rice and Annatto a scientist. First and foremost, Dr. Tan earned his Ph.D. in chemistry and biochemistry from the University of Otago, New Zealand, and spent several years as a professor at the University of Massachusetts. Today, his research focuses on lipid soluble nutrients that reduce and slow chronic conditions such as cancer. Dr. Tan, we are just so excited to have you today and thank you again for being here with us.
Speaker1:
I know I'm looking forward to disclosing as much information as I could on this unusual vitamin D. So I'll let you take the lead and then answer the question as best as I know how.
Speaker2:
Well, let's start by discussing Vitamin E. I mean, could you kind of give us an overview of of what Vitamin E is and how it was discovered?
Speaker1:
Yeah, Vitamin E is a very American affair. It was discovered almost 100 years ago by two University of Berkeley pediatrician. And they extracted it from spinach, which hasn't got much oil, which is vitamin E could reside. They discovered this and found out that it is Alpha TOCOPHEROL And hence most people know vitamin E as Alpha Tocopherol. And then fast forward. Then they discovered three other tocopherol. And then 40 years after they discovered for other vitamin E, which is similar to the for TOCOPHEROL, but they are called Toko Trino. So the two classes of Tocopherol and then Cocoa try and they are very similar in terms of the antioxidant capability. Except for the tail. The tail is like a tadpole ahead and a tail and the tail of a tocopherol is saturated. The tail of a toco is unsaturated. What chemical? Three double bond. And that unsaturated tail of cocoa bears out all the differences between tocopherol on one side and cocoa dry, you know? And if you ask the question why people don't know about cocoa is because it will discover almost half a century after by that time everybody got it in their head. Vitamin is just tocopherol. So, so. And I focus mainly on studies on the Tokyo trial.
Speaker2:
Got it. Okay. So so most of the supplements that are that are out there today that people may be familiar with that are vitamin E or the Tocopherol form, is that correct?
Speaker1:
Yeah, almost 95%. If you just grab a bottle of vitamin E, it will be 95% of the time would be TOCOPHEROL So hopefully after this lecture the audience will figure, Aha, I'm going to read the bottle to look for Tokyo trial or Vitamin E, which are harder to find. But you can definitely find on the Internet and on certain places where people sell them.
Speaker2:
Excellent. So so then is it fair to say without jumping ahead too much, is it fair to say that that most of the research that's been done on Vitamin E is also on the to call for all form?
Speaker1:
Yeah, because it's known 50 years earlier. So if you look at earlier study, it would be on antioxidant property preservation of food so that you won't fall. And then later then you fast forward to 1980. That was when the colossal changes happened. So they were so confident with Tocopherol from the 1980, 1990 and 2000. They begin to do large scale clinical trials for people with cancer, cardiovascular disease. So if somebody Googled, they're going to find out vitamin E fail or didn't work. So just remember that didn't work and failed because of TOCOPHEROL. Then during that time, in a mix of it, as early as 1984, I started to do my research on Cocoa Try, you know, and then that is a slow time coming. And so the last 30 years, unlike the earlier 50 years, will be mostly on cocoa. Try it now. And the cocoa trainer you Google, it will be on cardiovascular disease and cancer. And between these two chronic conditions, cancer stand out head and shoulders above cardiovascular disease.
Speaker2:
Interesting. Well, I'm glad we're having you on the show today, because I know we're going to learn a lot from you. I'd like to start by talking about your background. How did you get interested in in vitamin E and more specifically, the Tokyo trials?
Speaker1:
Okay. It was the year was 1983. So it's a long, slow train coming. I got a grant from the Malaysian government. Malaysia was the original country I came from and they were making palm oil. And palm oil to most of it's not common to us in the west here. Palm oil, if you unprocessed, they look like orange colour, like carrot colour. So it's unacceptable in terms of cooking oil. So to use the process, they bleach out the colour. So after they bleached it out, then the corn that then the palm oil looked like corn oil to yellowish but like that. So I thought, oh my goodness, beta carotene is good. Why would they bleach their mind and get rid of them so well? If you're interested to study this, Dr. Tan, why don't you ask the Malaysian government for a grant? I was at UMass, Massachusetts, then. I did. I got the grant and this is what I do. Very simply, I remove all the vegetable oil from palm I got and then I remove the carotene because I was studying carotene. But there's always half a percent of something dangling on the bottom of the pot. I don't know what it is.
Speaker1:
It's not the it's not the oil and it's not the carotene is always there. So I tested it. Wow. It's got very high antioxidant properties, so it just piqued my interest. Are reported to the Malaysian government. You know, this thing has gone and I don't know what it is. It's not my team that get the Grenfell for, it's not the vegetable oil, which is what palm oil is. This bit is old. They're just vitamin E dogs and don't waste your time on it. So then I said, all right, I did a simple test to find out, but I've got four peaks, not one and only one of them. A match, Alpha Tocopherol, Vitamin E, but the other one is not vitamin E because it doesn't match. Then I said that, you know, I know what this is. You know, you look and you show it look like it has some kind of polarity that have some kind of a tail. They did not seem interested initially. Then I found out those were Toko trainer. Then I said, Oh, everybody know vitamin E tocopherol. Nobody knows. So that was my beginning. That's how I got interested in it about 35 years ago.
Speaker2:
Interesting. So then so did you did you continue focusing mostly on on the palm source of that? Or did you soon start to branch out into some of the other sources like the rice and the annatto?
Speaker1:
Okay. Then I did branch up, but at the time, there's all I knew. You know what? We don't know? We don't know. So I knew it from this time. And then we did animal study. And with them there was a University of Wisconsin professor in medicine and he was extracting it of all things from barley, which are very little oil. And then he gave it to hypercholesterolemia and the cholesterol dropped like mad. Remember, this is 1980, just prior to the advent of statin drugs. Oh, this is cool. And then they identified a compound to be a taco trevino and said, oh, wait a minute, that's a quarter. And I've been working on it except on Palm. So I got collaborating with him and then I begin to work on it. And then I found another source from rice. But then the rice thing have to come from so not as potent as a palm somewhere doing that process some of the research work. And some did not. So I got this courage. So I decided that after I discovered pom pom and from rice, I stopped. So for about three, four years, I stopped. And during that time, this is a detour. But it's very interesting. I, I discovered a taco truck, you know, from an oil that have carotene. So I love the color of light. Then there was a university, Harvard University professor, ophthalmologist, and she discovered that in the back of your eye, to filter the blue light, you need lutein and zeaxanthin.
Speaker1:
Everybody now knows. But then it was not. It was new. And I said, Hey, wait a minute. I know the Marigold petal have lots of lutein and zeaxanthin so and I knew that is in South America. So I tracked to South America looking for the giant Marigold for lutein and Zeaxanthin, because I was I stopped doing research on Tokyo trial because half of the research work and half of the vision did not work. So I was not encouraged. I was expecting it to work 80, 90% of the time, not 5050, you know. Right. So when I was there, sure enough, I found my giant marigold. What I went there for. But fate has it 20, 30 feet away from me. I saw the Annatto plant, and then this Annatto plant. It looked like this c a beautiful plant. It could see the seeds there like that. Notice that where you expect the flesh to be, it would be air. Then I thought, this is very unusual, this particular part, and the part is very small. I took this. This is my prized picture possession. See, that's an Amazonian. Sorry, that's an Amazonian tree frog. The seat is about the size of grape seed, so the frog is no more than a penny or a dime like that.
Speaker1:
I took this picture and all that to tell you that they don't have a flash. So you see the color. And the color in Annatto is what we call it, Cheese's Dorito. That kind of thing is another carotene and carotene are unstable. So I make a guess there must be a powerful antioxidant that make this color does not disappear quickly. I was fully expecting this to be a polyphenol. There are many polyphenols who are antioxidant, but shocking to me. It contains vitamin E, one and two. It contains taco try and three. It did not contain any TOCOPHEROL Then I said Wow. So maybe if taco try, you know, can lower cholesterol go after cancer? I found a source from a natural plan that should be able to do it. So that was 1999 and I never turned back. So I went back to Taco try it again, you know. So that's how it came about. So, so it's a it's a it's a it's like people say, you know, true love never is travel straight path. So true discovery is not straightforward. But I'm glad I got this and I'm thrilled when it comes time that you ask me about the cancer study, it just it's just a blessing. Pure blessing.
Speaker2:
I can't wait to get into the cancer specific research in a little bit. But but just before we do that, I mean, I'd love for our listeners to learn more about how the enoughto taco train all is different from just the regular vitamin E we find in stores, which of course is the the Tocopherol form. Let's talk a little bit more about that.
Speaker1:
In nature, never mind. In the store you have four tocopherol and then you have four to go try. And together they are vitamin E. And if you look at the literature of this eight vitamin E, the one that is most active, let's say, is my index finger here. The one that is most active is Delta two, hands down, and the second most active is Gamma Taco try. And if you look at another of all these eight, it only contains Delta and Gamma Taco try just just that.
Speaker2:
Only the good stuff.
Speaker1:
Only the good stuff. And it's so unusual for a plant. In other words, usually plant have a mixture of thing and then pharmaceutical company would identify them and synthesize them. But this is the only plant I know the of the eight compound. It makes the two and the two are almost as good as pure medicine. So I'm just fortunate. But in all, most plants, most plant in the US they have vitamin E, they are mostly only TOCOPHEROL Occasionally like palm and rice, you have to try and only annatto contains the to taco try and it's completely free of tocopherol. So with this I knew my research life is arrested. I'm going to give the rest of my life studying these two compounds. So that's my last 25 years.
Speaker2:
Wow. So, so if someone were to to be looking on their their vitamin E supplement. Bottle right now or after they finish listening to this episode. If they see something like Alpha, Tocopherol or Gamma to call for all, that's basically just letting them know it's one of those types. So it's Alpha Delta, Gamma for both. It's a call for calls and the token calls, correct?
Speaker1:
Yeah. And then those tocopherol are only good to the extent that they're antioxidant. But if you look for something that can mitigate chronic conditions, like the ones that we have studied high cholesterol, triglyceride, fatty liver disease, obesity, osteopenia, and of course, the whole class of cancer. It will be try, you know, unshared tocopherol. So that would be and then if your audience want to know, always know from the source it come from it should always save on annatto because just like the plant cell from Annatto, because I have not found it from any other source but this plant so.
Speaker2:
Well, thank you for saying that, because I think the temptation is, you hear okay, vitamin E, they're all the same. I'm going to go find the cheapest one or the the most convenient one to purchase. And we often talk about on this podcast, you know, quality matters in the detail matters. And that's why I don't just generally give supplement advice, because it's not just about identifying a supplement, it's about the source and the quality. So I really appreciate you mentioning that.
Speaker1:
And then while we're at this, I happen to have a molecule here. See, this is the this is the head here. I know this is pure gibberish to people who may not know, but you see, this is a tale right now. The head here of a tocopherol and taco try is the same. This oxygen is bound in a ring. So not active. This oxygen here is an antioxidant. So everybody know about this. But if this were to be a tocopherol here, you will only have to have the hydrogen, which is white color, the hotel and the carbon which is black color. But where a taco try is different. This is a taco try now is different is here is the double bond here to bond to bonds here and to bonds here. By the way, this one here is actually an alpha tocopherol molecule. It's not. But if it is the toco molecule, it has a double bond here, a double bond here, and a double bond here. And hence they'll call tri in three, double bond on the tail. So all right.
Speaker2:
So let's talk a little bit more. You briefly mentioned the word antioxidant, so let's talk a little bit about that. So when we when we think about inflammation and listeners of the podcast will have heard me talk about inflammation a lot. We talk a lot about healthy cells, their damage, they become inflamed and that that kickstarts that whole process of of mutating into cancer. So so how can a natto toco train als benefit us in terms of fighting inflammation?
Speaker1:
Okay. Our study in the in the broad sense not like very mechanical sense how Toco Turner can kill the cancer in in a normal person we have in a body make up of cells and cells look like a beam shape and we have about 38 trillion cells now. That's a number hard to grasp. 38 trillion cells is about 5000 times the population of the earth. So that gives us some understanding of manageability. And all these cells have a cell wall. Otherwise, if the cell would have no cell wall it crack open, then all the contents in the side in the cell would disemboweled. We cannot have that. So we have a cell wall. The cell wall. We just see a thing like a castle around people who live. Long time ago, the cell wall has got phosphate cube on the outside, but the inside of the cell wall is fatty acid. Most people may or may not know that. So when people say that you take antioxidant, I sometimes the word is used very trite because everybody say everything is antioxidant, but I'm very specific. Antioxidant that I care about most is lipid antioxidant. The antioxidants that protect the lipid. Why? Because the lipid is the most easily oxidized. So anything that protects the lipid the best. So in 1980s, an Austrian professor, he decided to extract all the antioxidants on the lipid membrane of the cell wall.
Speaker1:
That is a very insightful thing. 90% of all the antioxidants under on the cell membrane, they are vitamin E molecule. The remaining 10% are things like CoQ10 and also hydrocarbon carotene, which means beta carrot. And lycopene. That's it. Everything else is nada. They're just antioxidants, but they don't reside in the cell wall. I'm interested in that. So. I said 90%. That means Tocopherol and Toko try this to the tail of a taco. Try a shorter. The tail of a tocopherol is longer. So when Tocopherol insert itself into the cell wall, it moves around like this to protect oxygen from coming in. And then the taco try know because the tail is shorter, anchors less deeply. It flies around 50 times faster because it do that is able to capture the free radicals or the bad guys faster. So simplistically, I use that example as a local policeman only in L.A. City. And then and then the taco trying to fly around faster is a state trooper. It covers the whole state of Georgia. So so it's still capturing the bad guys. So that's how it does it better. So a taco truck, you know, make a good cell, not go bad. If it protects this good cell, not go bad, then the chance of the bad cell turning really bad like a cancer cell will be controlled. So that's my simplistic explanation for the cancer protection.
Speaker2:
Well, that's very helpful because I mean, I know there are plenty of people listening right now who who are listening for a from a cancer prevention perspective, maybe they don't have cancer, but they want to do all they can to prevent it. Or even if someone maybe who's listening from from a cancer perspective and they want to tell their their friends and loved ones, you know, some good strategies. The Toco train dogs can be very helpful in keeping those healthy cells healthy and not degrading. So that's really important from from just a wellness health perspective.
Speaker1:
Yes. Now now I know I'm preempting days while we are on the flow of things. Allow me to say it. You will probably have in your audience, okay, that's good for cancer prevention. But what if I already have cancer? Now what? See, like that. So let let me answer that because you're not in the flow, Taco. Try not have been published in about 500 papers or so and recently somebody wrote a review on this. I consider that three important things mechanism like how does Taco try kill cancer now is a different thing from what I describe early on, the prevention thing. These are the three things many of us know that. Cancer cells are immortalized. In other words, when you have the cancer, they just go live on and on and on until they overtake the host like that. So that means their DNA is retooled because no more cells in their body are not immortal. We don't live forever. Not not not in this physical world. You know, people live about 70, 80, 90, 100 years old, and then they turn up. But cancer cells are immortalized. So there is a process called apoptosis, whereby the cell had something can call upon the cell and tell the cell that you've got to finish up now. You've got to die. There's a period you should stop at this and then you can help the cancer cell to apoptosis to die rather than do it. So that's one mechanism, one way how to try to turn the rewired cancer cell to die. The second one is if the cancer cell have gotten to a place whereby it aggregated, immunized and become two mm. Or bigger now that cancer is a tumor. So when you get to a tumor or two.
Speaker1:
Mm. Or so, it is too big now to have osmosis and just suck the juice from the nearby cell. So now they do plumbing job. They actually grow blood vessel to the nearby thing and sucked in. So that is called angiogenesis angio meaning blood vessel Genesis growth. Grow a new new blood vessel defeated so-called to work as an anti angiogenic agent. It cut off the blood vessel so that the feeding tube to the tumor is cut off, essentially starving the tumor to death. Now, when when the audience listen to this is that well, this doesn't sound like a big deal. No, it is a big deal because the cancer tumor now has been told to live like a dinosaur because they grow ten times, 100 times faster than normal cell. So if you cut off the feeding to the dinosaur, cannot do like what you and I can do at £10. Have to lose £10. Eat less. You cannot the dinosaur can't do that. If you're wired to grow like a dinosaur, you will die fast if you don't have huge amount of food. So if you cut the tube, then the tumor would die. So there's a second strategy. The third one is many people don't know that when the cell grow like mad cell have a lot of cholesterol. Taco try no work to stifle the cancer cell to make cholesterol. So without the cholesterol, they aren't able to make the cell wall. And without ability to make the cell wall, then then the cancer cell cannot multiply. So those are the three specific, compelling strategy how to directly kill the cancer cell. Not really preventing, but actually going after the cancer.
Speaker2:
Well, that's a big deal. And I'll just kind of summarize that for for for for our listeners. You said the first aspect is, is the apoptosis and and you kind of touched on this, but one of the one of the we talk about the hallmarks of cancer. You've touched on several of those, but but one of those is sort of the immortal nature of cancer. Once it's undergone a degree of mutation, there is no signal to to undergo that programmed cell death, that apoptosis like normal, healthy cells have. I mean, we we tend to forget that, but our normal cells kind of have a pre a predetermined lifespan. They they kind of do their job. They live their life. Okay. It's time to to go to sleep now and go away. And the cancer cells don't have that. And so that's why we have to kill it. So turning back on that apoptosis trigger is a huge deal. And then your second point about the angiogenesis is also a big deal. And I want to talk more about that because, you know, you mentioned that the formation of these new blood vessels that cancer promotes to to feed itself. I mean, that's important for people to remember because we tend to sort of view cancer as this this sort of walled off area of the body. And it's not communicating with anything. And it's sort of this deep, dark corner. But the cancer wants oxygen, cancer wants nutrients, cancer wants all these these things for fuel. So if we can cut off that fuel supply, as you stated, amazing. And then in number three, talking about.
Speaker1:
Cholesterol.
Speaker2:
The cholesterol, I think that's very important because there's this whole axiom out there, you know, cancer, love, sugar. Well, people tend to think that cancer only love sugar and that's a big mistake. So it's not just about reducing your sugar and eating ketogenic diet because cancer is easily going to use other things for fuel. And the cholesterol pieces is is so critical because that's not getting talked about enough. I mean, cancer loves cholesterol. It needs cholesterol for that cell membrane, as you mentioned, it can turn cholesterol into an energy source. So so the fact that that phenols can can address that is a huge, huge deal. So so for those of you listening, this is a big deal. So I just wanted to I didn't want that to get lost in our conversation. These are three very big attributes of total training, all that you went over for us. So thank you so much for that.
Speaker1:
Yeah, thank you, Dr. Segal. For for recapitulating this these are the they are other people. They are the mechanism that people tend to for what Tokyo try can do for cancer. But I believe these three to be the most compelling.
Speaker2:
Excellent. Well, I'd like to talk a little bit about about some research. Dr. Tan, you recently released some results from an ongoing clinical trial on ovarian cancer and total trials in ovarian cancer. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
Speaker1:
Yes. Before I do that, we after we've done many things on cholesterol lowering because of of arteriosclerosis. And then we study people, post-menopausal women with osteopenia before they get to osteoporosis. And now we're having a study in Texas on post-menopausal women who are obese. So they're clearly a chronic condition. And then we also doing study on fatty liver disease, which is a big problem in the US. We have decided to put our resources on the cancer regime of the different thing and of the cancer study. We are among the very first. So the five studies were committed to do on cancer study, ovarian cancer, breast cancer, lung cancer, colon cancer and pancreatic cancer. And although the for pancreatic cancer is probably the deadliest of all ovarian cancer and related cancer, the results are so and so on. The ovarian cancer thing, this is it. We are studying. Just remember the context. We are studying stage four ovarian cancer. So there are no more options left except for giving them chemo. They are inoperable and you cannot give radiation is not going to work not not at this late stage. So therefore, the cancer patients are only taking Avastin drug, which is an anti angiogenic drug. It's a multibillion dollar drug.
Speaker1:
So we have that group, then another group with Avastin drug and to try to take 300 milligrams, one for breakfast, 300 for lunch and one 300 for a dinner. So they take a total of 900 milligrams per day breakfast, lunch and dinner, divided doses of 300 a piece like that. Remember, I'm not suggesting to all cancer patients these are always remember stage four, there are no available option. So they did the study well designed the study. And I'm happy to report for those that. After ovarian cancer on Avastin there life is probably up to six months and there are no more for those on the Avastin and the Tokyo trial, half of them still living after 12 months and 25% living after 24 months. So that was published. So I think if this Tokyo trial will be a drug, you'll be all over the news. But it isn't. So we published it and very shortly we will also have the colorectal cancer. But my colleague in Tampa did the pancreatic cancer, and he also brought apoptosis to the pancreatic cancer when it excised the tumor from the pancreas. So right now, we've got hot data on pancreatic cancer and ovarian cancer and shortly colorectal cancer.
Speaker2:
So are the pancreatic results out yet or are they still being prepared in terms of the data like you shared for the ovarian cancer?
Speaker1:
No, the pancreatic cancer results are out. The can the pancreatic cancer a design is different because they are not stage four. They are they are surgically removable. So they probably stage one and two stage removable. So what the doctor did was they only give them to try in 14 days before surgery, which is very short time. And then they did that because they can't wait that it took to go on day 1 to 14 until the morning of surgery. So when they did that and they're able to give low dose of 200 milligrams to the highest of different group of people, higher dose, 3000 milligrams and several in between doses. So this FDA called dose escalation, how high can you go before the effectiveness disappear and how high can you go and can you elicit a toxic effect? Because until we do, we don't know what seem to know. So to two answers that were not able to elicit a toxic effect. And the second one was they are able to see apoptosis even at the lowest dose, at 200 milligrams from the exercise tumor that they see. And then the third statement is they believe that the active dose is somewhere between 4 to 600 milligrams. So I gave you the three answers from that.
Speaker2:
Okay. Excellent. So in terms of different cancer types, I mean, we have listeners with all types of cancer. We talked about the good results with ovarian cancer and in other other types of cancer being studied. But do you feel like you could accurately tell us which cancers you think the Delta Toko training models are beneficial in? Or is it too early to say that at this point?
Speaker1:
I would say right now, maybe I will reframe your question. Why did we choose those five different cancers to begin with? The pancreatic cancer clearly was because it was first done on colorectal cancer. It was done by a GI tract surgeon, and he decided that it worked so well he was going to see if he can check on the GI tract. I did not know I would show my naivete that the pancreas is part of the GI tract because it produces pancreatic juice. I didn't know that. So. So he did that. He did that because it worked so well on the colorectal cancer. So he was going to go on the very deadly one like that. The other cancers I mentioned, the breast cancer, the lung and the colon cancer. We chose that there were many animal studies. We primarily chose that because those were among the major killers. The only big the only two big ones. We didn't do prostate cancer. We have not done that yet, nor the liver cancer. So I would say all these cancer we did, we're going to work. Probably if I have a budget to do it, I would go after liver cancer. I have a strong feeling that is going to work in liver cancer or people with hepatitis C and clearly currently we are doing it with people with fatty liver disease, everything in the liver, fatty liver disease, hep C and liver cancer.
Speaker2:
So is it fair to say that that you haven't you haven't seen it not work? Is that fair to say that there haven't been any cancer reviews tested where it's just hasn't done anything?
Speaker1:
That is correct. To answer that, I'll go to animal study one step below the human study. In animal study, we probably have tested 50 to 80 different kinds of cancer, and every time it been studied, it worked on 50 to 60 different kinds of cancer. As you know that there are about 400 or plus known cancers in human. We are a small company, we're not pharmaceutical company. It's only limited resources. But I feel confident that based on the six we actually having a total of. Clinical trials on cancer. But based on the five cancers that we are studying, I feel confident that if someone is managing cancer of one kind or another, there's nothing to lose. I'll tell you why I come to that conclusion. Cancer. Drugs kills cancer. However, if you kill a living cell in your body, it is always go with the territory. The cancer drug will kill your normal cells. Also hence there is a manage amount of toxicity. Try ino whether you classify this as a drug or a supplement. I call it a supplement because it's a vitamin that we have not been able to document. Safety and toxicological problem. They are okay with the liver, okay with the kidney, okay with everything we measure in the blood. So with all those safety. Okay. And if I were to have cancer, I would go for it because there's nothing to lose that by not taking it.
Speaker2:
So and that's exactly what I was I was kind of trying to get at with my question. I mean, obviously, we can't we can't give medical advice for specific cases. But based on what you're saying, my impression is we've seen very encouraging results with the auto toko train calls against various forms of cancer. We we haven't seen it fail to work and we also haven't seen it cause any sort of toxicity. So so as you said, it really doesn't seem to be any risk in taking it, which is very exciting because we can't say that about a lot of things.
Speaker1:
That is true. And in fact, as you are talking it because you say we haven't seen anything fail, I will report one thing, the only one study in clinical trial where women with breast cancer for which Tokyo try not did not work. Okay. So if people Googled, you'll find one study. I study I went to study that it was done for five years. They gave people about 2 to 300 milligrams. So when I magnified and took a look, when they gave them about 25 to 30% of those vitamin E were tocopherol. That was when we strongly surmise the presence of tocopherol put brakes on the function of cocoa. Try. You know, it's not it's not so much that the tocopherol is toxic that tocopherol put brakes on the function of cocoa try. So in my best feeling I'll be happy if people your audience email to us, we'll send you many published study. Why tocopherol put brakes on cocoa in our function. That was the one. And since then all the other clinical trials and animal study when they removed the tocopherol from it, it works when they stick back the tocopherol the the killing of the cancer stopped to work.
Speaker2:
So so this is this is really, really helpful because I'm kind of viewing the the Tocopherol versus the TOKO trial as sort of a yin and yang. It's sort of a opposing force there. And so that's why when we are talking about a supplement, we want to only have the TOKO trained and not that's a call for us.
Speaker1:
That that is correct. Now, I understand that, you know, many of our listeners are alternative and I'm with you on this. And sometimes there's a construct like that. Let me address it head on. If a pharmaceutical drug make one compound and one compound zone in a laser shop and kill this or solve that disease. But in nature, we make a pictorial or or a spectrum of different thing. So sometime we've got the concept that if we make a different class of thing, nature intends is that this is the best. I don't fundamentally have problem with it. This kind of talking is scientifically we use the word synergistic synergism like that. I'm with you. However, any two thinking person would accept. If mixture of compound can be synergistic, then mixture of compound can also be antagonistic. You cannot reject it. So every so often you find a mixture of the same class of compound. Not often they are antagonistic. This alpha tocopherol is antagonistic to the other vitamin E. By the way, this is not the only time I give you another time. Your audience probably know about carotene really well. They want to take lutein and zeaxanthin as anything, but you know that most people take beta carotene. If you take beta carotene, a lot of beta carotene will interfere with the absorption of lutein and zeaxanthin you Google you find this out is published by University of Illinois about 15, 20 years ago. So so it's not often no. Dr. Segal but when it is, we should we should let the public know so that they won't do things that opposing each other. But mostly they are synergistic. If they are antagonistic, they should be the first to know so they don't mess up on things that they shouldn't be.
Speaker2:
Well, and that's a great point. And that brings me to my next question. You know, there's research suggesting that that cancer can actually hijack anti-oxidants, especially in supplement form and and use that for for its own defenses. I mean, if you think about if we're talking a cancer cell with with powerful treatments like chemotherapy and whatever else we're using, it's going to irritate that cancer cell. And cancer cells have their own defenses against damage, just like the normal healthy cells do. And so so one of my questions is we've all heard about the antioxidant supplements, the vitamin C, the vitamin E, that it can actually be used by cancer cells to withstand damage. And for that reason, I tell patients, you know, in my practice, let's be really careful about about antioxidants while we're giving you treatment in the office because we don't want to lessen its effectiveness. So so how do how do the Annatto Toco Trejos kind of fit into that?
Speaker1:
Okay, before I answer that, I know you have framed this question to Kim for me. I want to let the audience know. I applaud Dr. Segal for asking this question, and I am not afraid to answer this. So I I'm really glad you asked. Tough question. So this should be to your to your credit or your audience who listen to you framing this question. This question has been asked of me before that the assumption of this question is if a cancer drug is pro oxidant to kill the cancer, they make a lot of free radicals to kill the cancer. Then if you take an antioxidant, you'll follow up. The function of the cancer drug that caused the cancer to die is a plausible question. So the way I would answer this is this there are many chemo drugs. Not all of them are pro oxidant. They are chemo drugs that go after apoptosis. Like you said, they're chemo drug. They go after anti angiogenesis like Avastin, very famous. So they're not anti they're not co oxidant. They just cut the blood vessel that is. But among they are probably 6 to 10 different kinds of cancer drug like women, we take Tamoxifen and Tamoxifen and none of the Tamoxifen is is like an estrogen receptor estrogen blocker C, but among them is one class which is pro oxygen. So in the rare exception, if you take a drug that costs free radical to kill the tumor, then maybe.
Speaker1:
Okay, let me take a second. But if they're taking chemo, drug is apoptosis or anti angiogenesis or Tamoxifen kind of thing or some other thing then are unrelated to anything that would follow up the chemo thing that an antioxidant would do. So that's one way to do it. So this is what I am thinking. I actually when you ask the question, I went to the Internet and I will be happy. I will just put this. This is from the essay The Opposite, published in 2018 that told not to go to the antioxidant actually help to promote the cancer kill, not the other way around. But then they say the word antioxidant is used broadly. They are not all. Antioxidant, like they would fouled up the the oxygen thing. They say that the antioxidant used it actually helped to reduce the toxicity of the chemo drug. The antioxidant help to increase the sensitivity of the chemo drug. Sometimes people use a very fancy word, chemo sensitize. So they increase the sensitivity and increase the survival of the patient. All shown and toco try work on all three in reduce the toxicity of the chemo. Increase the sensitivity of the of the chemo. As in people who use gemcitabine in pancreatic cancer and increase survival, which is the ovarian cancer study that we have.
Speaker1:
But still, I go back to the earlier thing that toco try in our work. In and of itself to go after the cancer, like I told you, of those three. So, yes, it's an antioxidant, but if it directly kill, go after the cancer, forget about the antioxidant thing with the exception that if they're taking a chemo drug that makes that is a pro oxidant now. So let me change a little bit slightly different. Again, when people have cancer, they go to three things surgery, chemo or radiation. So cut poison and burn like that. So we the cut thing is very obvious. If you cut, you'll have serious inflammation. If you have serious inflammation, if you take taco try, no taco try, no will reduce inflammation. I'm supporting the case. And the second one, people who have cancer take chemo. We're taking poison to kill the cancer, but it poison the person also. So therefore only an pro oxidant cytotoxic drug is an exception. But if the apoptosis angiogenesis lowering cholesterol, then they're fine to take it with the chemo. And the third one and we have lots of animal study that taco try does not mess up the chemo. It actually potentiate the chemo drug not against the chemo drug. And the third one is radiation. Sometimes people say you use radiation to create a lot of free radicals to kill you like that.
Speaker1:
Because of other personal reasons. I cannot say that. But when people have radiation to their breast is not it doesn't look pretty because it just burn the heck out of things. You know, it's not good. So there's severe inflammation like that, but people think that that is not thing. Think of it when you have gamma rays, that is ionization. They are ionizing radiation. Ionizing radiation means you zap something in everything fried on its path. If everything fry on its path and Tokyo try, you know, supposed to do something else, they're not even thinking straight to cut. I can't do anything else. Everything is just burned on his path, you know, because they're not normal oxidation. They are ionizing. That means that ionizing sort of ionizing is just burn the heck out of everything on this way. So if you take ionizing radiation, Tokyo is not going to fold up the ionization. So-called fine are simply is to reduce the damage done on the normal tissue. So if I were to have radiation for that, I would have no problem taking proton or not stop taking at least to reduce the inflammation and the severity on the nearby normal tissue. So that's my argument that I should not think that there would be a problem. We have the lone exception that if they're taking chemo drug as a cytotoxic pro oxygen chemotherapy.
Speaker2:
Now in terms of of dosing I mean, I know you touched on that a little bit when we talked about some of the studies. But but but let's say someone I mean, just general ballpark, of course, if someone that has cancer, what, what kind of dosing of the anada Tokyo train are you do you kind of recommend.
Speaker1:
Most most of the cancer study we did the highest dose on stage four would be 900 milligrams and and the study eight at 300 breakfast lunch dinner like that. And then for the study, that dose escalation on the pancreatic cancer, we found out that they work best on 4 to 600 milligrams. So if people take a take a two pills of 300, that would be fine. We are hoping to do a study in Florida, probably about five or 600 milligrams for people with stage two colorectal cancer with polyps. So so that gives you some guides now for other mild chronic conditions, 3 to 400 milligrams would be would be okay. Example of mild chronic condition would be hypercholesterolemia, hypertriglyceridemia or fatty liver disease. And for a normal, healthy person for antioxidant protection, probably 1 to 250 milligrams would be fine. So I gave you that range there.
Speaker2:
Perfect. Perfect. Thank you so much. I know. That's really helpful. Let's talk to you about any sort of other side effects people would need to be aware of. I mean, I know there are some concern with certain vitamin E formulations. Could it thin the blood? Are there any kind of contraindications that we know of with with someone taking a blood thinner or low platelets or anything like that? With the with the annatto taco triangles.
Speaker1:
Yeah. The the comment that vitamin E could fill the blood and prolong the bleeding and the cut if you have a cut, would not seal. It's always been there for a long time. And in the surgical thing that I talk of pancreatic cancer, they were given 14 days to the morning of the surgery. Those that took taco try, you know, the healing of the wound after surgery were now compared to the one on control. That means that they're not statistically significant. I mean, either one of them did not have anything. No means that those who take or not take is the same amount of time to heal like that. And so there's no difference. And other people who took Taco try, you know, and in the morning or surgery also nothing. So I didn't we did not see anything that would be differentiated. I would say this, if somebody is taking blood thinning things like Coumadin, now, that's different because their blood is too sick and then they may tend to have stroke because the blood is too thick. If they take the Coumadin, then they thin the blood. Like if it's in too much, then they have stroke again. So it's kind of like, you know, it's a double whammy to stroke Tucson slow. So if they take Coumadin and then they take Taco to make that make the blood thinner, therefore they have stroke. That would be we have not tested that in animal. We don't know how to test that. We have people taking it. And if they if their clotting factor is longer, they just talk to their doctor to titrate lower dose of the Coumadin. So that would be the only time I would be well, let's think about this a little bit, but to all the other things, I'm fine with that without without any concern, at least from the safety study that we have.
Speaker2:
Got it. Well, thank you for that. I mean, I'm asking because I know there are people listening who are going to want to try to kind of do it themselves. I mean, in a perfect world, they would they would all be my patient and I could discuss these scenarios with them individually and and we kind of tailor it to them. But I wanted to kind of cover those bases because if someone wants to run out and start taking it, I just wanted to make sure that that certain populations would, would would take the proper precautions for that. So thank you. But but the general advice is, you know, talk to your doctor. But but I realize everyone doesn't have an integrative oncologist who knows about this and can discuss it with them. So I think for a lot of cases, especially if patients are listening, that they only have a conventional oncologist, they're just going to say, oh, it's vitamin E, don't take it. And they're not going to really know these details you've shared with us today.
Speaker1:
Yeah, that's correct.
Speaker2:
Well, Dr. Tan, I want to talk about your book. So you recently released a book. It's called The Truth About Vitamin E The Secret to Thriving with an Auto Toko Train Calls. How can our listeners get their hands on a copy of this?
Speaker1:
Okay. I'll show you. And then I answer you by showing a picture of the book. If you have a hard copy, it looked like this and you can go to visit Barry Tan. Just my name. Barry is spelled Barry and my last name is just tan like suntan a dot com. And if you type in the code cancer secrets, that would mean that you have gotten it through this podcast. Then you get a copy of the book to download like that. So if we or someday if we meet up, I'll be happy to send you a hard copy, but a download will be faster. You can do that and it is a labor of love. I wrote this book to cover as broad as I could. What I'll go to I know can do cancer is highly focused but other areas also. But there will be some among your audience are scientists and doctors. They want to go for deep dive. And I also is an editor of a book. This one you have to buy online, which, by the way, you buy online for $150. And again, this is the label. So we buy many thousands of copies of this book. And then if you send us an email, we'll be happy to to pass on the book to you, probably like 30, $40. We're doing this purely as a labor of love, no money to make. But if you can buy online, you'll be five times more expensive. This one will be taco try know vitamin E beyond taco on the top here. And then if we just type my name as a senior author of this book, it will show up. You can certainly buy online like that. Here will be a compilation of about 2030 different scientists and professors and medical doctors in the world. They write about all the different things of what. Or try it. No can do. So you can get that book online as well. Okay. Write to us to get a quick copy.
Speaker2:
Got it. So two different books you just shared with us. The one The Truth about Vitamin E. That's the one that they can go on your website, put in the code cancer secrets and and get a download of that. That's more for the general public. It's less. It's still scientific, but less scientific than the second one you mentioned, which is a hardcover book that you said they can contact you to get that at a reduced price. And that's that's a much more technical book. More for your researchers and scientists and physicians.
Speaker1:
That's correct. That's correct.
Speaker2:
Got it. Well, I encourage everyone to get a copy of the book. I've read. I've read the book and it's excellent. I've read it and and really learned a lot from it. And we certainly incorporate the trials in our practice with with some of our patients. And I think it's just a great formulation. And I just want to thank you for all the the research you said it's a labor of love, the book, as well as the research. And I just want to thank you because, you know, it's hard to be a researcher, especially in this day and age, that research is just so dominated by pharmaceutical companies. And and that's not to say anything bad about the research they do, but research takes a lot of money. It takes a lot of time. And so to to to be as forward thinking as you are to to do a lot of this research without the millions of dollars of backing from a drug company is a lot of hard work. And I just want to highlight that because it's easy to say, oh yeah, this, this guy did research, but but to really take it upon yourself to do research on something like this that is natural and to put these studies together and to do all the research you've done is, is we're just very grateful to you for that. So thank you so much.
Speaker1:
Yeah, thank. Thank you for that remark. It has been, you know, time and resource, a time and money. Resources are very hard to come by. And we have put this the last 30 years. I'm highly confident on this. So I know our time is running out. But if we have a follow up interview at a later time, I would like to discuss another compound which I also discover is a compound called Journal Journal. I know it's a mouthful of a word. We just call it g. G like this compound g g is an endogenous compound is a compound your human body makes. So the moment you say that then is, Oh, why does our body make this compound? What is that? Therefore? So we are now researching on this. So, so maybe the next time we can pick this up, just if you Google or if you cannot spell the word properly to find study. If you send us an email, I'm sure Kim would help you to spell it. And then you can Google look, today we have Google so we can read a lot of stuff. You can even go to Wikipedia and find out about G, g, you know, so it has many good, good points. It does different things. It works also on chronic condition. But for cancer, taco try would be hands down, but for g, g is for more chronic condition as we age and all one day is going to be older than we are currently today. And so taking care of health and how we can mitigate our aging process is a good thing. So. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Segan. Thank you. The listener out there listening in. Hopefully this will bless you and you find useful information. So thank you.
Speaker2:
Well, Dr. Tan, thank you so much for for being our guest today. It truly is an honor. And I just want to recap your website for everyone. It's Barry Tan. Barry Tan dot com. And again, for people who want to get the book, they can enter the promo code Cancer Secrets and get a copy. So I encourage everyone to do that. This has just been a great episode. I just want to want to just remind our listeners to please subscribe to the Cancer Secrets podcast so you can be notified any time we get a new episode release. This is episode number 40. We've had tens of thousands of downloads already. We've reached people in over 70 countries, I believe, now. So we're we're humbled with all the listeners we have. And so thank you to all of all of you who are listening. Please share the podcast with your family and friends. We always want to get the word out not only about conventional cancer therapies, but also a lot of integrative and alternative therapies people may not have heard about as well. So I just want to remind everyone of that. And then cancer secrets dot com. We have all of our episodes there for free for people to listen to. So, Dr. Tan, thank you again. It's been an honor to have you. Thank you for taking time out of what I know is a very busy schedule to be with us today.
Speaker1:
Thank you.
Speaker2:
Saying well we'll look forward to talking with you soon. We'll have you on again sometime. Thank you again.
Speaker1:
Thank you.
Speaker2:
But by.
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